In the old days well my old days you could by a 250 which in some cases would do 100mph & all you needed was a provisional license that cost you £3 (ok plus insurance & tax ) no training at all was required & i remember when i was 16 seeing a lad buy a bike from a shop and asking how to ride it from the bike shop owner .   The shop owner said turn the key kick it over pull the clutch leaver in put in gear & let out the clutch & off you go .   I watched in amazement as this young lad kangarooed down the road leaving ashford in weekend traffic heading for maidstone including having to ride down the then main route of the A20 .   I hope he made it there alive .   The old way of just getting out there and ridding with no training is why so many young men & a few women are sadly not with us today .   Every other week you were reading in  the papers about another teenager who was killed or crippled in a bike crash .   The lucky ones amongst us survived                                                                                                                                                                               

it seems (i`m by no meens an expert) that folk on here who analise their ridding and do extra training to improve their ridding (whether through courses slow speed or track or just with mates) are not the problem, they/you/we look at bike riding as a skill to improve in order to stay alive (i hope) i kinda feel that if (we) passed ANY test years ago what does it matter, if we have ridden 1.000`s of miles (or km our euopean chums) and still ride safe, it is because, unlike car/van/truck drivers (i`m one of all of these so include myself) to simply survive we HAVE to get better, and not develop bad habits, i`ve done a few miles, i still do life savers (didn`t even know what they were called we just did em in the 70`s) i still check blind spots (ever looked in a shacky miror on an old bike?) i stil take notice of that "feeling" some idiot is going to pull out/brake hard/turn the oposite way to he`s indicating/ something wierd is round the corner. i`m no better than you, no better than a young pup who`s passed the best test in the world, but if anybody tells me he`s a better rider than i am, i do`nt ride with him (i`t s always a bloke) stay alive by thinking every one is trying to kill you, and pick the folk you ride with by how YOU think they will look after others, not themselves.   (god i go on)                                                                                                                                                                             

Oldyeti, 

I am 100% with you on this, I would would not say im a better rider or worse rider than any other biker out there, not one biker out there is perfect, no matter how long or how much training they have had. I know there are worse riders out there in the sense they ride like idiots and put other's at risk. At the end of the day, there will be accidents but i really do feel that most will be caused by drivers not looking for us riders and that view comes from my experience riding thus far. In one day I got cut up and almost knocked off my bike at 70mph 3 times, one by a car driver not looking and another by a driver wanting to over take me when i was already in the overtaking lane (this one cut me up twice). 
Another driver tried to cause me to fall off on purpose by pulling in front of me at lights and slamming her brakes on for no reason (no cars or bikes or anything in front of her) and then shouting at me as if it was my fault and to finish off, she then went and cut me up and all the cars in the other lane, hence i know it was on purpose. 

This is why I want more training as soon as i pass my test, followed by further training 6 months to a year later. 
OK it's not going to stop idiots from causing accidents with us bikers but it may help us to avoid an accident by these idiots. 

                                                                                                                                                                             

Ace remember might is right! You can't argue with cars they'll allways come off best, if the're in the wrong.                                                                                                                                                                             

After years and years of riding big bikes, I was comfortable with my riding. I then rode my sons 125 super moto, that sharpened up my senses as in I had to plan much more as I didn't have that instant response to get me out of trouble.

BUT the point was I was I had that experience to plan, most new riders don't have it. I was surprised and pleased that when I went out with my son, he did seem to have it, a lot of that was down to him taking note what was going on whilst he sat as a passenger in the car and I gave him a running commentary "if you were on a bike you would do ....... etc etc". He has been riding for over 2 years now and failed his Pt1 due to the infamous swerve test, however in my opinion he is much better than some of those who have passed the DAS. You can be a crap car driver and get away with it, and don't learn what you need on a bike and that level of knowledge is not enough                                                                                                                                                                              

plus never forget, statistics and lies!   having ben unfortunatly at the scene of far more accidents than i`d wish on anybody, i`ve learnt; 1/ any body, from beginer to the most experianced rider, comes of worse than any driver. 2/ lots and lots of us think it was the other guys fault. 3/ most are not "accidents" but somebodys pilot error. 4/ some folk are so thick skinned we are wasting our breath trying. 5/ do your very very very best not to have one on a bike.   ride well, and lets hope safely this year!                                                                                                                                                                             

It's good Shadowfox that you went back on a 125 to just realise that without that power of a big you do have to plan which is what I have had to do and as has your son. 

Iv now done 1500 miles on a 125 and tbh, i think that has made me a better rider than just going straight for a big bike right away. The swerve test itself isn't hard, it's how strict the examiners are that makes it hard. 

Still, as many have said, you will never beat a car when on a bike and no doubt drivers know this and thus do not take as much care, and many times (not all) the police do seem to look at it as if it was the bikers fault. And I know many police do not like bikers at the best of times (I have two cops in the family and a few friends in the cops that back this up). 

Anyway, all we can all do is plan ahead, look out for idiots, ride to our best and hope that the drivers will look and that idiot isn't on the road with us

Happy and safe riding                                                                                                                                                                              

We are all loons in their eyes .....live with it folks it comes free with the bike..!!!
Don't forget your ID tags for when they scrape you off all the cars they say you are going to hit in your life time...
                                                                                                                                                                             

maybe we need barcodes on various body parts incase of confusion in a mass pile up, it will save the taxpayer a fortune in DNA testing!                                                                                                                                                                             

also, the bar code would help make sure non of those nasty organs or blood taken from bikers found it`s way to clean living car drivers or upstanding citizens.   as i understand it, % wise, greater % of bikers donate organs, and blood than recieve, maybe we should get a discount or special nhs privalilages?   obviously don`t get a kidney, but the brains apparently (especially form young fast power ranger male bikers) are fantastic, sort after and very very valuble, they have never been used.                                                                                                                                                                               

pmsl                                                                                                                                                                             

i have driving for a living for over 20yrs starting in vans,7.5t to buses,coaches and for the past 12yrs now a rigid wagon ive also been riding for 20yrs.ive seen every idiot out there in all forms of transport but would still consider bikes to be a lot more aware than everybody else,also if you can take advanced training what are they teaching to start with a lower standard!why dont they teach advanced as standard anyway in all forms of transport?

Mark you can deff do advanced training for a car and i presume that in order to become an instuctor in for example driving a bus that you must have some sort of advanced training to do that, I would be suprised if there was any vehicle that you cant get advanced training for, I bet you can even get it in cycling proficiency!

The advanced car driver test would probably lead to an increase in the numbers not passing & this would lead to a decrease in car sales, also take into account the decrease in accidents which could lead to lower insurance premiums, add to this less cars=less fuel sales...My god!!! what government would sanction such a financial crisis, merely with the goal of saving human(yeah bikers are,despite what some may think)lives..                                                                                                                                                                             

I don't need any advanced training.....my pychiatrist says im advanced enough...                                                                                                                                                                              

isn`t the "new " more comprehensive, 2 (3?) part test for bikes "advanced" compaired to the old one? didn`t we all complain when this was putting new folk off and causing it to limit the numbers of new blood  taking to bikes?   iv`e worked with folk who are all advanced drivers for the last 27 years, yes they (we?) seem to have less acidents, but sometimes the person in the other vehicle is just not paying attention/ or plain wrong, and stuff happens, on a bike your just more vunerable to be honest.   sometimes (i feel) the "advanced" label folk get , gives them a superior mind set, and the 1st reaction is that the other guy is in the wrong, i always thought if we are wrong, hold your hand up and say "i`m wrong, sorry" (i may be wrong, i`ts happened before, my ex wife told me so.)                                                                                                                                                                             

Oh, and Julie,
would it be ok to do the cycling proficency when it`s a little warmer, as i like to have an ice cream when i have my shorts on?                                                                                                                                                                             

it is not compulsory to be wearing shorts when eating icecream.   its not compulsory to take an advanced test to drive a car,just saying its available as is icecream.                                                                                                                                                                             

so apparently, in this society, we are still able, allowed and free to eat our ice cream either in or out os shorts?   well i`m glad we live in a society where we are free to decide which method we chosse, either short of long clothing, i`m guessing as long as we meet the minimum level of decency and pay for this as society asks?   maybe if we have done the same on our bike it`s also aceptable, and we can decide for our selves if we feel in need of training and only we can?                                                                                                                                                                             

maybe i should add a smily face? but unfortunatly i cannot work out how! o hang on a minuite i may have moved into the 20th century (yes i am still a little behind the times, but please bear with me) i did notice the spelling of bear, not bare, or bear as in to support weight, but as in a bear of little brain, thanks a.a. milne.   hoping to not be sarcastic.....hoping.