hi done                                                                                                                                                                             

Julie , you will have to get your emissions tested, your quite right trying to find them on the net is impossible. I have them with all the paperwork for the last owner.                                                                                                                                                                             

thanks Shell think i will ask to get it done next time it needs to go in for titivating, find it hard to grasp the concept that it chucks out more muck than the car, its only a littleun after all!                                                                                                                                                                             

reading julies comments about our bike, I know we have a 1600cc engine ( not the biggest on here as there are rocket owners on here ) but our bike is a 1600cc but only a v twin, surely a 1600cc car with 4 cylinders and 4 exhaust outlets would have more emissions !!!....let us know ???

Probably not LC.

The advantage of four cylinders is smoother running which in turns makes for a more efficient engine.  Typically a four cylinder engine would run more efficiently than a twin of a similar size and power, but it's not always the case.

To make matters even more complicated, although co2 outputs are relative to fuel economy, there are far more to "emissions" than simple co2.

Indeed, the matter of Euro 3 testing has been mentioned in this thread and I have done some investigations into exactly what this relates to and the results are quite surprising.

Although co2 emissions are tested by manufacturers, this is only done to obtain an estimate of fuel economy.  The british government consider co2 emissions to be the most troublesome as it is these that have greater implications on ozone damage.  As such it is co2 emissions that, as we all know, form the basis for car road taxation.

Euro 3 testing includes measurements for nitrogen oxides (NO), total hydrocarbons (THC), non-methane hydrocarbons (NMHC), carbon monoxide (CO) and particulate matter (PM).

But Euro 3 testing does not test co2 levels!  As such whether your car (or motorcycle should we move to taxation in this way) meets Euro 3 testing or not has little relevance to road taxation.

Another point to consider should motorcycles move to emission based taxation, is whether we would be lumped into the same co2 emission bands as cars?

My suspicion is that we wouldn't.  The range of possible co2 outputs cover a much smaller range for motorcycles than for cars.  Although fuel economy in smaller bikes tends to be much better than bigger bikes, fuel economy doesn't seem to vary much in bikes that are 600cc or bigger.

In order therefore to encourage bikers to trade their 1000cc+ machines in for smaller, slightly more economical machines it would make sense for us to have a separate list of tax bands from cars.  This could result in much higher tax costs for those riding large bikes than those riding 600cc machines, despite a relatively small difference in co2 emission.

If taxation levels for the average 600cc machine were similar to a car of similar economy, say £155, then big bikes could well be in the £250-£300 region if this was to happen!!  This is obviously just presumption and guess work, but it would make sense in an eco-friendly, fair taxation, politically correct manner.

Of course this also means that road tax of big bikes could easily triple!  Which wouldn't be good for any of us.

All in all therefore, I still feel we should be keeping our heads down about these recent tax increases rather than suggesting that some do good, corduroy wearing, bearded eco-warrior in the government has another think about motorcycle tax.

Instead I feel we should be concentrating on putting together evidence in our favour should the risk of emission based taxation become a real threat.                                                                                                                                                                              

lc 1600 cc is 1600cc twin or four makes no difrence as geoff said  but it worth arguing about anyway                                                                                                                                                                             

lots of very good points and really interesting, but how is it that for example a 500cc engine (like my bike) can pull me and a passenger about at a reasonable speed but not meet the current guidelines for acceptable emissions and yet the new fiat 500cc car can do the same but with 4 passengers and a much higher weight and yet fall within the emissions guidelines and have better fuel economy?   how are the bike and car engines different? (once again in numpty terms pls)                                                                                                                                                                             

Am i missing the point here,,,,what difference will it make whatever the price of tax is,,,,,its something we need by law to use public roads so we buy it,,,if we dont then there's the bus!!!!!! Insurance debates i could understand!!!!! we are going to get fleeced whatever!! craig                                                                                                                                                                             

i say just leave well alone...dont petition, as it will just keep the subject fresh, but like julie sais if my bike is only pullling 2 people max, then a 1600cc car is pulling 5 people, radio blasting heater on the full works, the engine has to work harder to do all that work, .....oh wn we know 1600cc is 1600cc , but we were asking if it made a difference re the amount of cylinders...why dont we concentrate more on the tax dodgers and insurance , that already makes our rates as honest people go through the roof !

The Fiat 500 isn't actually 500cc Julie.  It's 1200cc.                                                                                                                                                                             

Why don't they just treat bike tax the same as cars and charge the big fat gas guzzling inefficient bikes over 1000cc 400 squid per year to subsidise the rest of us, sounds fair to me 

I think it would be wiser to petition the government on the state of the roads, surely a tax increase would give even more weight to our argument!                                                                                                                                                                             

i thought the purpose was that all us bikers were supposed to be sticking together RK ??....so if you have a bike over 1000cc you think we should pay around 400 pound tax ?...i rarely go over 70 mph on the bike, hence buying a cruiser , so does that mean my engine is not throwing more gases out ???...i think it should just be left alone, and why should i be taxed the same rate as some big v8 4x4 that carries up to 7 people and is probably around 3-4litre  engine capacity ?? 

Geoff it cant be!!! its the size of a tic tac box!!   oh well the points the same,prob best to use  ians comparison of the 1600cc family car with 5 passengers                                                                                                                                                                             

Ian we are sticking together, if you're subsidising my bike tax you can be my best mate  

That was said tongue in cheek, as I said surely petitioning the state of the roads is the way forward cos we'll never beat the tax man!!

                                                                                                                                                                             

the pot holes at the moment defo need attention, i had a rear wheel blow out in my van and it totalled the wheel too !!                                                                                                                                                                             

I don't think there's much doubt, bikes are, in the main, tuned for performance, not economy. We will see efficiency figures for bikes, we're years behind the car industry in that.     The simple answer is to abolish road tax and add it to petrol. The more you use, the more you pay and it's impossible for anyone to avoid. And it would save all the admin costs.                                                                                                                                                                             

"The simple answer is to abolish road tax and add it to petrol."

Hear, hear!  I've said exactly the same thing for years.  It has to be the fairer thing to do to be fair.

Ok, it would mean that the likes of me would pay more for road tax, but I'd accept that given that tax for most bikers would decrease.

I'd make the sacrifice for all of you lol!                                                                                                                                                                             

Geoff & Rob - yep I agree ,it's something that I've said should be done for years & something that I seem to remember was discussed by some party or other about 10 - 15 years ago......the reason they gave for not doing it was something along the lines of ....'it'll be too complicated to administer ' !!!!                                                                                                                                                                               

The excuse used to be that it made sure everyone had an MOT. No MOT, no tax.   But nowadays, with the computerised system, that argument is redundant.                                                                                                                                                                             

The truth is of course that there are a huge number of vehicles on the road that do very few miles (hence the reason average annual mileages are low).

Therefore putting the tax on fuel would put the government at a high risk of losing revenue.