Take a quick look at this article... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7430132.stm   I'm absolutely gobsmacked at these charities who think that raising the price of beer, or MPs who resort to prosecution, will stop underage drinking.   The price wont stop kids wanting to look cool and tough, in fact it will make the lads 'cooler' to the girls and their mates if their able to afford drink (As well as drinking it, and breaking the law in the first place).   Kids drink because it's illegal, therefore cool.  If you were to raise the age to 21, it would be even cooler!  If you make it completely illegal, like drugs, it would be even cooler for them.   Let me tell you how it works here in Holland, where again (i think) the Dutch have got it right...   From 16, you can drink beer.  The beer here isn't like john smith's, or guiness, etc.  It's like fizzy, watery lager.   From 18, you can drink spirits and everything else.   This solves the problem of underage drinking, because... Kids can drink beer, albeit watery, which is hard to binge drink on Drinking beer still keeps them cool with their mates and girls Being legal, makes it less appealing Being able to drink beer, means theres no reason to attempt to buy vodka or other stronger drinks When are the MPs in Britain gonna get something right?  Just take a look at other country's policies to see where it works and where it doesn't. Holland has the lowest underage drinking, underage pregnancy, and (Believe it or not) drug-related crime.  Go figure.   Just thought I'd throw that in there, get a discussion going                                                                                                                                                                               

"However, average consumption by young people who drank had nearly doubled from 5.3 units in 1990 to 11.4 units in 2006." Doesn't the last sentence say it all, there is some thing wrong with the existing laws if young people can consume so much alcohol. ASBOS don't stop them, they are badges of honour. The whole level of responsible drinking has fallen in the UK. Some people have not had a good night out if they can remember what they did. Putting up the price of drink only penalises those who drink in moderation, as the irresponsible drinkers will buy cheap boose where-ever (abroad) and get well on their way before going out. I don't know what the answer is but tougher laws against those who sell or supply drink to the underage would be a start.                                                                                                                                                                             

but kids just get their older mates to go buy for them.  Then when they get caught, they say they bought from shop X and shop X then gets done for it.                                                                                                                                                                             

its cheap availability i cant remember being able to get alcohol as young as these kids now lager was unheard of!we started drinkin about 17 an cheap sherry and scrumpy [cider]was the cheapest way to get legless!there were no supermarkets selling cheap booze!no cans!in fact yu didnt want to drink the stuff available bottled bitter ugh!dunno were its going wrong maybe kids feel they have not much future an gettin legless eases the boredom,we were all in full employment mainly as apprentices[secondary school ]or college for grammar kids!we only got legless on Saturday nights then we were broke an no more till nxt Saturday!i wake up now an ouside my house in the lane by the church is littered with lager cans[not me!!] i saw one adult recently buying young girls bags of cans of lager he was a bit care in the community an the girls had obviously talked him into gettin them booze[an he probably paid for it!]!but ive seen young fathers drinkin cans outside schools now!!! an often seen young dads walkin in town with a can of lager !!!pushin the pushchair!

     Most of the young kids these days appear to be able to afford beer and fags better than I can. I suppose the politicians think that putting the price of fags and beer up and banning smoking in pubs is really going to stop people smoking and drinking. If kids want to get fags and beer, they are more tenacious than most adults. Banning smoking in pubs only closes loads of them down, which, in itself, causes a knock on effect hitting breweries, bar staff, cleaners, discos, live bands and (Most of all) your relaxing night out. I went to three (Biker) pubs in the neighbouring town on Saturday night, two of which, I had not visited for about twelve months. The first two were boarded up with 'Site acquired for  ****** homes', never to serve another pint, the third tells me that his takings are about 40% down so is unsure of the future of his pub. His pub is now (Obviously) not full of 'Smokers' but it aint full of (Non smokers) either whereas it used to be full of both. Banning things has never solved any problems, (Usually only creates others). Do you really think that your government wants to solve anything? No! all they are interested in is making as much money from it as they can.(While it lasts). And when it's all gone. Well! we can worry about that later while we are sitting on our ar*es with nothing to do and nowhere to go, can't we.                                                     M.S.        A disgruntled smoker and drinker sitting watching the country being closed down around him.                                                                                                                                                                             

I am 100% against smoking though :-)   It's disgusting, expensive to the NHS, and smokers inflict their bad habbit on those around them without any care or consideration.   Nobody ever came up to me in a pub and asked "hey do you mind if i smoke around you and make you stink and damage your lungs due to my bad habbit?"   You don't go up to a vegetarian and stick meat in their face do ya?  No not like that! lol   Making smokers go outside is the best decision the government ever made.  They're not stopping anyone smoking, they're saying "Take it away from those who choose not to smoke", which is 100% fair.  I still say double the price and give the money to the NHS.                                                                                                                                                                             

cant understand with all the bad stuff associated wiv smokin thet peeps still do it!!but of course thier addicted same with any drug caffeine in tea an coffee an of course alcohol!why do young parents smoke around their kids an in the car with the kids in the bk they say they love there kids an do anythin for them well give up smokin[an drinkin to much!] then!! i did it so can they!!must say when in Spain that on average Spanish men look fitter[no i aint gay!] than English guys with there beer bellies[Spanish dont drink pints!] an slovenly dress code!!back on the ferry an couldnt help but notice how grosse a lot of English looked!and knockin back booze as soon as on board!our drinkin culture is so different to that of the continent where taste an drinkin with food is more important than jus chuckin pints of ghastly carling black label down yer throat!mind yu they smoke more than us an theres no really enforced smokin ban so ms move to Spain!

To whom it may concern.      I am a smoker. I became addicted to nicotine many years ago when there was no health concerns, in fact it was glamorised. My doctor smoked (In surgery), my school teachers smoked (In class), even puppets smoked (On childrens T.V. programs). I know that it is now looked on as 'Antisocial' but as any long term smoker knows, it isn't that easy to 'Just pack up'. I never smoked around my kid or even in the house.      My parents kept two pubs over the years, both had etched windows with 'Bar', 'Smoke room' and 'Lounge' frosted on them and in pubs, people smoked and drank. My 'Beef' isn't whether or not smoking is now 'Antisocial' it is the fact that the 'Anti smoking brigade', with the help of the government are forcing pubs into closure.      'You don't go up to a vegetarian and stick meat in their face do ya?  No not like that! lol'.       No you don't Matt. but, by the same token, if you are a vegitarian, you don't go into a 'Butchers'. Do you? AND. If you are Muslim, you don't go into a pub and start moaning that they are serving 'Alchohol'. (OR maybe you do).      If you are 'Anti smoking' why the hell do you come into my pub and start moaning about it when you already have loads of other 'Non smoking' establishments available. If you do not wish to be 'Tainted' with the smells associated with a certain establishment, 'Don't go in', I can't ever remember dragging anyone in against their will. BUT NO! Some people want to inflict their opinions onto me, throw me out of my socialising place then let it be closed down and demolished through lack of patronage, (Then neither of us can use it).        'It's disgusting, expensive to the NHS'.      True, but smokers and drinkers have probably paid more tax (Into the NHS) than any other 'Bodies' in this country. Why should they now be 'Outlawed'.      Some folk go 'Potholing', 'Sky diving' or participate in other 'Extreme' sports, (Some even ride fast motorbikes, dread the thought) which is entirely their own choice. Do you not think that maybe they should be refused 'Medical treatment' for their own 'Self inflicted' injuries. (Where does it all end?).        My issue is not whether you choose to smoke or not, it's to do with the fact that my lifestyle is being 'Forcibly' changed by government decisions (And no one even bothered to consult me). First of all it appears to be 'Voluntary', then, before you know it, it becomes compulsory. How long before we can't ride bikes that can do more than 50 mph, have to dress up like a Michelin man, cars are made of rubber in case anyone decides to run out in front of one, all vehicles are chipped so that 'Big brother' knows exactly where it is at all times, can't go out after dark, can't walk on the cracks in the pavement etc, etc, you get the picture. (Mind you, the government has to protect us against ourselves, doesn,'t it).  'Divide and conquer'. That is the government's strategy (And it's working). You and I are now 'Divided', I accept your views but you criticise me for mine, (Funny how poeple tend to stick together, when it suits them).      I used to think that 'England' was a 'Free' country.      But now, obviously not.        Oh! T.M. I am 'English', born, bred and proud of it. England is (Or was ) my country and I love (Or loved) it but am now very sad to see it mostly owned and controlled from outside sources and going 'Down the pan'. (Fast).        Anyway, this seems to have drifted off your original topic somewhat. I think kids will continue to drink and smoke while alcohol and tobacco is still available, the only time they will stop is if/when they decide themselves.        Just thought that I would put in my 'Two pennuth',(For what it now appears to be worth).                                                               M.S.                                                                                                                                                                             

lol I can't believe how glamorous it used to be, and teachers/doctors smoking etc.  Wow. But regarding the "Veggies dont go into a butchers", no they don't... but why should non-smokers not be able to go into a bar/pub/club and enjoy a night out just because they choose not to smoke? As I said before - the government haven't banned smoking, you've just gotta go outside and smoke there.  It's completely fair and a great compromise.  It could have been banned completely (Which I'm against!  I do think you should have a choice, but you shouldn't make others around you suffer).  Smokers should have smoking rooms, or go outside... but not be able to smoke in large, main general indoor areas.  Simply because it's not fair to ruin my night out, or my health. A pub is a public house, and nobody should feel uncomfortable or unable to go into one.  When I used to go clubbing, my eyes would be stinging with the smoke (Cos they're not used to it) but everyone would just think I'm some wuss. You gotta admit that it's not fair to make others suffer for your bad habbit.  You said you would never smoke at home or in front of kids, so why in front of me and others?  Cos we're an adults?  It's the same, it's my health and I choose not to smoke. OK but we are going off topic lol. Kids will smoke and drink (And some take drugs etc).  Cos it's illegal for them to do and makes them cool. If you legalise some of it (Like beer, not spirits) then you give the kids something to still be cool with but not giving them access to the stuff that can harm them. Gotta admit, i was drinking from 15 upwards and it never did me any harm (Im talking xmas, new year, birthdays etc - not every night).                                                                                                                                                                             

  FFS not that old chestnut again...SMOKERS. Zzzz   Matt passive smoking has NOT been proven to KILL anyone, that was just propaganda by the anti-smoking brigade. (I have documentation to back up that statement, but alas not on my puter so I can't mail you it) Yes stale smoke smells foul, and so does a smoker after just having a fag, it makes me want to puke but it made me feel that way before I quit smoking; but nasty smells never killed anyone, not unless they're toxic. Yes, I do know that smoke irritates some people's eyes and chest, and that isn't pleasant but it  doesn't KILL them.     I agree, SOME smokers are ignorant of how others feel, SOME don't care how others feel about being subjected to the stench and having their clothes reek of it, however I disagree with a blanket ban. All that has achieved is the streets, and certain doorways absolutely stink foul now and fag butts are rife all over the ground which looks disgusting, IMHO.     I see no reason to ban it from ALL public enclosed spaces, smokers managed just fine NOT to smoke in shops, on buses, in hospital wards etc long before the total ban so why couldn't the government trust smokers NOT to smoke in other places without introducing a total ban and without making it illegal?                                                                                                                                                                                 

well passive smoking aint good is it?  And with the chemicals in it - it's highly likely to be bad.   If you stand behind a bus with it's engine running, the fumes aint good for you and are probably very bad for you.   And FGS, smoking isn't banned!  The government would loose too much money lol.  It's just been moved, to give us non-smokers an easier time.   And are you seriously suggesting to ask half the population nicely to not smoke and they wouldn't? lol, i don't think so.   I can now go out (in the UK anyhow, in Holland from June - yes even coffee shops!) and not have my eyes burning, my chest and throat feeling rough, not smelling, not filling my lungs with chemicals, etc.  And at what cost? The smokers have to walk a few yards to where they can smoke.   A fair deal that nobody can deny.                                                                                                                                                                             

And I do feel bad that pubs are closing down, but i think they would have closed  anyhow.  Theres always pubs closing every day, and always have been - they just now have an excuse.  The pubs, bars, clubs are always packed out (from what i saw when i was back in UK in april, and i went to a LOT of places).                                                                                                                                                                             

Matt......when did you join the grumpy old man brigade? LOL                                                                                                                                                                             

i think pubs should have had the choice as if a pubs clientell was mostly smokers then fair enough if the landlord decided to be a smokers pub!!they would be mostly local small pubs not affecting the mainstream'healthy' public!as with the drink drive laws contributed to closin some country pubs!but families now out for carvery's which is very popular now an kids being allowed in!so a smoke free envirement is good also provided mum an dad drink sensibly maybe the kids will learn to also!i was a chain smoker an gave up gradually as the benefits as with not drinking to much are to feel so much better plus more cash to spend on bikin!!we can go to far as even fartin can contribute to global warmin!!how will the gvt stop us?on another note the gvt banned asbestos proven to cause lung diseases,someone has to make decisions for the good of society if they dont they get criticised for not doin anything!damned if yu do damned if yu dont!!politicians cant win!!an no jokes about my wind please scary or yu will gt a spanked bottom!!! 

Matt.   'lol I can't believe how glamorous it used to be, and teachers/doctors smoking etc.  Wow.'      Take a look at old films. Ho! Ho! bloody Ho!   'why should non-smokers not be able to go into a bar/pub/club and enjoy a night out just because they choose not to smoke?'      You make your own choice, if you didn't like one that was 'Smoking' , you could have gone to one that was Non smoking'. The next thing you will be saying is that it your right to go into a 'Men's' bar but you want all the women to be fully clothed cos you don't like the look of tits.   'A pub is a public house, and nobody should feel uncomfortable or unable to go into one.'      Too true. So why am I now being made to feel 'Uncomfortable' and no one was stopping you coming in before. (Your choice, (Remember?).   'When I used to go clubbing, my eyes would be stinging with the smoke (Cos they're not used to it) but everyone would just think I'm some wuss.'      Well matt. We can't have people thinking you are a 'Wuss' can we. Have a word with the government maybe they will ban the word then we will all be O.K. And. If your eyes were not used to it, it seems that you did not go there that often so the night clubs weren't gonna miss much sleep about losing your custom. OH! by the way. I don't like clubs much. SO I DON'T GO IN THEM. (MY choice).   'Simply because it's not fair to ruin my night out,'      No. But it's O.K. for you to ruin mine.AND I was there first.   'you've just gotta go outside and smoke there.  It's completely fair and a great compromise.'      Fair and compromising for who? Why don't you stand outside in the cold, damp fresh air. Do you fancy standing outside a pub door (In the middle of Winter just so you can have a fag) when there is no one inside? No, neither do I, so I stayed at home. At least I can sit and have a fag in my shed (In peace).        Like I said before. I did not smoke in the house. I did not smoke in front of my kid. I did not smoke in other peoples houses (Unless offered). I did not smoke around people whilst they were eating, (Including adults). I did not smoke in many places But I 'Did' smoke in pubs.      The day before the smoking ban came into force, myself and a few friends (One a non smoker) were sitting in the 'Smoking' section of one of our locals. The 'Non smoker' said virtually the same as you have said. When he came out with the bit about 'Is it fair that he should breath our smoke', we asked him why he was sitting in the smoking section and maybe it might be better if he pi**ed off and sat on his own in the 'Non smoking' (But he elected to stay, his choice). He also mentioned about how 'Bar staff' should not be expected to have to work in a smokey atmosphere, (They knew that when they applied for the job and if you don't like fish, you don't apply for a job in a fish shop).Well, that's all sorted now. The pub has closed down, so the 'Bar staff' don't have to worry about that any more do they? I am not a heavy drinker but the crowd that frequent the pub about 100yds from my house are. They regularly leave the residue and bi-products from their nights binging, along the path and up the lampost out side my house and that's much worse than the smell of fags. Perhaps the government should ban drinking too, that should sort it. And so we get back to where this thread all started, 'Drinking'.   T.M.      I agree totally with what you say regarding landlords having the choice to have 'Smoking' and 'Non smoking' rooms. but they were not given that choice. I also know that many pubs were already suffering but ask most landlords and they will tell you that the 'Smoking ban' has greatly affected their takings. For many, it was the final 'Nail in the coffin'. Regarding the bit about kids and meals out. Restaurants and pub areas serving food have been 'Smoking free' for some years (Remember) so no change there.        As I said in my previous post. This 'Was' not a 'Smoking' issue it was about freedom of choice.        Anyway! Matt.  This topic has certainly got this thread 'Smoking' again hasn't it. Think you might owe me a packet of fags. .                     M.S.                                                                                                                                                                             

Someone tell Roy Castles wife her dead husband did not die from second hand smoke!!!!!   He worked in working mens clubs most his professional carreer and died of throat cancer (a smokers cancer) HE never smoked!   I would have to turn around after about 10-20 mins of entering a pub because my eyes where streaming (stung by the fog of noxious smoke and non seen particals)   Why should pubs be the place only frequented by selfish smokers who do not stay in (The Smoke!) BECAUSE such places do not exist with pubs re themeing and making their bars bigger by knocking down the older styled to make room for themed pubs and what about the staff who Have to breath in the 2nd hand smoke weather they are smokers or not!   It's become a nanny state but at least the smoking ban is in the interest of EVERYONE'S health and safty even if you smokers.   I was forced out my last job due to selfish smokers, everyone else smoked but me! (smoking in shared vehicals and accomodation) what's that you say report it to the boss (the worst culprit was the boss) an attitude of "I bought this effin van so I'll do what the Eff I effing want to in it eff the govt!" He'd flout the rules in motels/hotels and even smoked in bed he'd wake up a couple of times in the night and spark up his darling rollie, which in turn woke me prompting my coughing and diving under the bed clothes to get away from the fould stench of Drum or Sampson tobacco being re kindled..................                                                                                                                                                                             

 'women have to be fully clothed cos matt dont like tit's'!!!yu leave  our ladies tit's alone or i'll set scary on yer !!!                                                                                                                                                                              

T.M.       Scary!  I'd just give in. I'd even pack up.                                                                                                                                                                               

People who have hair annoy me!  And then just to take the p**s they then complain about the cost of having it cut!   God only made a few perfect heads; the rest he put hair on.                                                                                                                                                                             

Well if you'd had to part with 7 whole quid last year on haircuts, you'd feel the same Geoff!   Cheeky mare reckons her price has gone up to a tenner as well. Typical! Just as I'm coming up to my annual shearing!