don't make sense to be getting more on benefits than you would on minumum wage does it....                                                                                                                                                                             

  Matt who said the government are going to force folk into this? I can't see where that is mentioned in any of the posts before yours   Johnny, no one on benefits gets more than an employed person. I wouldn't be so poor if we did.   A lot of people stay on benefits, or try to stay on them, because they think they will be worse off financially if they get a job, but they won't be.   The ones who can afford to smoke, drink and go on holiday every year are either on the fiddle (working as well as claiming) or on the rob, excluding those who live on bread and water most of the year of course.   It isn't always black and white, my physical health has changed meaning I can't do half the jobs I could, so I retrained to help me get employment which basically meant I was back to square one, as in leaving school, NO EXPERIENCE, which means no one willing to offer job when there's loads of other people with experience.    When I did manage to get a job I was made redundant after 7 weeks.   Job centre are worse than useless, I have asked many times for help and been met with negativity. The job centre cause most of my stress, my self confidence goes straight into my shoes whenever I have to visit the place, and when they ask me what have I been doing to find work I feel like slapping them.   In February the job centre put me in touch with one of those agencies they employ to make unemployed folk think that finally something is being done to help us get into work. The woman dealing with me went into hospital shortly after my interview, and after a couple of months I emailed her asking what the state of progress was for me, she told me she was extra busy and was also waiting for a reply from an employer as to whether or not I had a placement with them. 2 months later I'm still waiting, a total of 4 months since my initial interview.   This happens a lot, the job centre put you in touch with an agency whose staff promise you they will help you get a job and all it boils down to is a course on how to create a CV and fill in forms.                                                                                                                                                                                   

kwak if you read the posts again it does say it doesn't apply to everyone ie you, so are you saying you don't know anyone on the social who is making better than someone in employment?????????   You know as well as I do that there are parasites on the dole who fiddle the system and have no interest in work.....and if you don't see it then your not looking...we have discussed this many times before with many different people over the years and we all know lots of people on the dole who have no interest in working...... for gods sake under labour if you are a registered alcoholic you can get an extra bundle of cash for that......and why since you get more and more money when on disability has it risen by a few million since it came into action...because its easy money.... again I know people with bad backs and who are carrying lots of injuries from the years in the armed forces...(not missing limbs but just wear and tear)... they still work as they don't want to be sitting around.....   it is the skiving scum that everyone has a problem with not the genuine ones so don't get touchy about it if you are genuine no one has a wrong thiong to say about genuine cases and you will see that if you actually read the previous replies   there is a site which calculates what you can claim.... I entered as a single father with 2 kids claiming for nothing extra than just being unemployed and in a rented place £700 a month paying council tax at £1400..... it worked out as £322.72 weekly now that is a lot of money its tax free and more than most people I know in low paid jobs are on.....   Information from http://www.turn2us.org.uk/benefits_search.aspx Total Entitlements £16,827.70 £322.72 weekly   Entitlement per year per week notes Means-tested income entitlements Tax Credits-Initial Tax Credit £5,153.80 £98.84   Tax Credits £5,153.80 £98.84 Child tax credit.  Means-tested bill reductions Council Tax Benefit £1,400.03 £26.85 You should not have to pay Council Tax as you qualify for full Council Tax Benefit. Our calculation is based on you receiving £98.84 from child tax credit.  Housing Benefit £8,516.66 £163.33 We have calculated your entitlement using the Local Housing Allowance rate you entered. LHA rates change every month so please return to the calculator regularly to check your entitlement. Our calculation is based on you receiving £98.84 from child tax credit.  Other income entitlements Child Benefit £1,757.21 £33.70   Total Entitlements £16,827.70 £322.72 weekly                                                                                                                                                                               

Kwak you really can't believe that employed are always better off!  I moved out of the UK largely because of these systems there and how angry it made me. The house i lived in for example, I had a neighbour at both sides.    One side was a woman and her 5 kids.  Every so often a new guy would come along... and bang, a new kid popped out.  He'd leave, another would come, pop... another kids.  She was getting DOUBLE MY SALARY from the police.  I worked hard, travelled 10 hours a week back and forth.  40 hours on the job getting public sector pay.  Not only did she get DOUBLE my salary, but the council were at their house putting new f-ing kitchens in, new bedrooms, etc every other week!  Really got on my t**s.   Other side... a fella of about 40 with his 18 year old girlfriend, who had 3 kids with him.  Neither of them worked, the house was free and they never had a job.  Dealed a bit of weed from the house to make plenty of cash, always had plasma TVs etc while I could barely afford the fuel to get to my public-sector, shit-paid job.  What did he do when he needed a new sofa?  Poured a tin of paint over his existing one, then called the council and said his kids did it and he couldn't afford a new one.  THEY GOT HIM ONE and took his recoloured one away.   And that's just my direct neighbours!! Literally the 2 houses next to me.  Don't get me started on the rest of the neighbourhood, or Rochdale in general (shit-hole)   Don't think I don't know what the system is like.  I grew up in it, have been surrounded by it all my life on the council estates I grew up on.   I got too pi***d off with it and left the dump of a country, just far enough to get away from the politics and benefits system (and the people that scrounge off them), but close enough to come home to family easily.                                                                                                                                                                             

"it is the skiving scum that everyone has a problem with not the genuine ones so don't get touchy about it if you are genuine no one has a wrong thiong to say about genuine cases and you will see that if you actually read the previous replies"

Therefore blanket cuts as has been suggested on this thread will affect the genuine.

If benefits are set at the minimum level and I have for "survival" then that's fair and doesn't necessarily mean cuts.
A rise in wages would do the same.

It's wrong that people who fiddle can get away with it, but if it's going to cost more to police that than it will save????????
                                                                                                                                                                             

skiving scum and fiddlers got the system beat and do what they want and get everything given them. genuine cases get no help at all.i say if you lie to get things you must have a good memory.I lost my job got a temp crap job but i dont worry if a knock on the door or need to keep looking behind me.

Exactly Matt, we can listen to people say I don't get anything from the benefits but in truth you get enough to live, not to socialise...benefits are not there to afford you a social life it was introduced to stop you starving and destitute in the darkest of days....and that is exactly what it does......   ....................it is not a career.........    .....if you are on benefits and smoke, in my eyes you can shut the hell up, as it is a luxury that costs a fortune whether its roll ups or not..........also if you go out the pub or buy it for consumption in doors its not necessery and a luxury ....so if you say your not able to eat as skint ........   stop the luxuries and yes everything that is not essential is a luxury.......   If you can't afford to travel to a job interview...bollocks you need to go to the social they will pay for it.....my information...an ex girlfriend mother was deputy head of social services...   Hell my niece works for a company who will fund courses to get people back into employemnt after 12 months out of work.....these courses are expensive.....alternatively join the forces....excellent money, hard work and lets face it unless your infantry reasonably low risk (RAF - NAVY etc)   I would suggest if people say they are not getting help there are plenty of people out there who specialise in helping you find what you are entitled to. There are also websites (see previous posts on this thread)....   At the end of the days people the system is there to help the neediest when they are in direstraits..not to provide an income to live and enjoy yourself with instead of working...that is what people seem to forget....if you want more..... work, do anything, like my mate works two jobs, crap pay, but it then is enough to live comfortably on....                                                                                                                                                                             

What we're talking about is people on the fiddle, address that then.
Don't use a blanket measure that will affect everyone!

Yes a lot of people seem to have forgotten exactly why the welfare state was formed.

And it's quite obvious that this government and all others before it are "bodging" a system that's broken.

IMO two main reasons for this approach, to satisfy public opinion and balance the books.

I, like a lot of other people pay enough tax to single handedly keep a family in benefits.  The benefit system here is a joke and makes it far too easy for people to stay home and not even look for work. Anything that makes it harder for people at home than those of us working is a good thing and I hope the coalition government shakes things up.  They have started by capping housing benefit and I hope there is more to come.   Yes, there are people who genuinely fall on hard times and need help and thats what the benefit system was created for.  It was meant as a stopgap though and not a way to live because it was easy and why work when you get hundreds of pounds a week.  I wonder how many people will suddenly be available for work when their benefits are cut ?                                                                                                                                                                             

I don't dispute that things are wrong Tink but any blanket measure will hit the genuine cases as-well.

IMO the people on the fiddle are taking away from the genuine.
                                                                                                                                                                             

The shake up is to weed out the fiddlers, if you are genuine there is no need to worry.....and if you feel that you are being unfairly treated there is an appeals system, it may take time but sitting around complaining rather than doing won't help either.....   ...... two choices ...sit around and wring hands or get up and do what it takes to either get the benefits you should be getting or put that energy into getting a job ......  what ever it takes .... don't give up it is out there waiting to be found.....   If you are out of work my heart goes out to you as I couldn't comprehend having nothing to do (work) but as I am currently due to leave the forces everything I have learned is saying that 70 % of jobs are gained from networking/ walk ins and word of mouth......a high number are from people who are out pacing the pavements with a well presented CV and walking in to businesses asking for work...it shows a willingness to get up and put the effort in to start with.....   ...even offering to work trial for a week or two free just for them to see if you are a good worker and gives you also experience..... it will not affect your benefits as it is unpaid and the chances are you will get a few quid if the guy is decent as well.( not that I condone working full time and claiming far from it)                                                                                                                                                                             

I agree that if you are a genuine case then it won't matter what questions you have to answer, things you have to prove etc. Hopefully those fiddling and cheating the system will get caught out and banned from benefits for life ... The country is in such a state because labour were too soft and I truly hope we will see some change for the better in the coming years.                                                                                                                                                                             

Johnny since my racing accident I've not been able to work (paid) for 6 years.
Because of my business assets I've been means-tested out of benefits.
SS solution following government guidelines, sell your assets and when you've got nothing left come-back to us.
Last year I was able to-do a couple of voluntary jobs 1 at a stroke club and the other at a communications group for people with neurological problems.
All the people there have to pay sub's.
IMO the system stinks, is totally unsuitable for genuine cases and I've witnessed that there is plenty to worry about.
A blanket "solution" will only make it worse.

maybe the case but what do we do leave it as it is, or what....it is for the majority not the minority....I have a friend who owns a couple of buildings with not much income when she is unemployed it is means tested however when she is employed she is quids in,,,,,,,got to take the good with the bad....my mate has no legs (afghanistan) and a multiple assortment of problemsfrom blast injuries......he has got his legs on now and has pushed pulled and got in employment... so it is not impossible...like I say my heart goes out to guys like you but it is the skiveing scoundrels that milk the system that has brought it to this ....don't plame the government blame the leches that have abused it....report the f--kers....I would..

I have to say I reported someone and  fat lot of good it did me ...... The Social did nothing ....
They had paid the deposit on a flat for this person plus his rent were going to pay for courses so he could qualify as scaffolder and he got unemployment benefit.... sounds good in theory till you find out he was also getting an average of £250 pounds a week cash in hand and to top it off his g/f moved in still rent free (hid her stuff when they came to inspect) and she is on £14000 a year.
All they did is go to raves get drunk and smoke weed !!!!

Then you look at the flipside genuine people who rely on their benefits to survive and get no help.

The social , council and police(as they drove uti of drink and drugs) were told and nothing was done the investigating was minimal in this case so as far as shake up goes i doubt it will be fast moving sadly for those who need to be prosecuted.

Me personally think they should be named and shamed publically when they are caught fiddling. 

and when there is proof given to the relevant authorities and they don't act on it you then write and keep a copy of the letter to the head of that dept..... state you expect a reply or you will send a copy of the letter to a. Your MP.  B. the press then watch them move into action......   .....see one problem is when tey come to check the place...under rules itroduced by labour they have to give notice that they are visiting....so its a little counter productive?????????? just it needs total overhaul....                                                                                                                                                                             

That's pretty well what I'm saying Johnny.
The system isn't fit for purpose and I do blame the government, not just this one, they're in-charge of implementing it ergo.....

The people that fiddle are the cause of hardship to genuine people, so they're the people that should-be targeted and that's not possible by using a "catch all" new rule that just gives a quick fix, the government ATM have targeted the deficit and not looking at the implications of doing that.

If I hadn't had someone looking out for me for a couple of years after I got out of hospital, then who knows what would have happened.

If for any reason you don't fit into their little boxes you fall out of the system completely.
I bet the bloke with no legs had other things on his mind rather than benefits, that to my mind is when social should-be stepping in. In reality and from my experience, they don't give a damn if their boxes are ticked. It's successive governments that have introduced those boxes.

Sure you have to take the good with the bad, from a tax point of view there are a lot of benefits, BUT because I ploughed all of that back into the business for a retirement fund (So I wouldn't have to rely on the state.) I was penalised for it.
There's a lot that use the system for tax avoidance and spend the money, that's not the reason for it's existence, it should-be to help business/employment.
These people are no better than people on a benefit fiddle, but because they're "mates" with the establishment, a "blind eye" is turned.
Hardly ever is the "problem" addressed specifically.

Thing is mate that something has to give, how do you target the WRONG UNS....nobody knows in authorities unless we out the scallies...but it has to be proved not just a quick call to say hes working on social, they need solid info   ....we as a country can't afford the welfare state that has evolved over the last 10 years.......its easy to say give give but we have a choice now.....we sort it out or our kids pay for it.....I don't want my children to pay for our mistakes...and it is our mistakes......   We all borrowed, spent and lived the bountiful life when labour were dishing out money... on this and that and all sorts, we voted them back in, WHY? when we are old enough to remember that they nearly bankrupt the country last time they were in for any length of time.....   ....we now must pay the price of societies greed...and non of us innocent in that. We have one of the most pampered exsistances in the world in this country..... believe me some of the places I have seen in my 22 year in the services, we don't know what hardship is!!!!   I don't believe that anyone will starve or walk around dying on the streets. Yes we will feel it and we won't be able to have the luxuries we currently have......   look at it this way.... how many people have a mobile and are on benefit..... what did we do before mobiles????   how much do we eat...we as a nation ditch more food in a month than a lot of countries several eat in a year......what do we eat.... sweets....crisps....chip shop...curries etc..... I am as guilty as the next for it but what we are missing is we are so used with a good standard of living in this country that we expect it and we expect it as if its our right....we'll its not....the reason our debt is spiralling is in part to our welfare state.   Welfare state that pays for all the immigrants....their families...and parents etc in some cases....now if the are from the Euro zone nothing can be done as Labour signed away our rights to refuse admission to European Union, the only thing we can do is cap immigrants from outside..... at the end of the day if we don't stop the abuse in the system then we are proper f--ked mate.   I would rather they ripped the rule book up and had a basic amount that you get if unemployed and a little more on that if you are disabled...but hey if you are mobile and can walk about sit and go from A to B then sorry but I think sitting in the house watching TV won't help you get any better....if you are incapable of getting around then fair one...but what are you gonna do to spend all the money on if you are unable to go anywhere??????? sounds harsh well maybe but as I say if a person is genuine then they will be helped and if not then they will be caught out and rightly so...