There has been a lot of speculation in the press and by arm chair experts over the hand over from UK troops in Sangin in Helmund Provenceto US forces....it has been said its a cope out...a disgrace, a British defeat..... I want to clarify it a few points.   We took over responsibility for Sangin in 2006 from the US Forces who had taken a good hammering by the Taliban in that area, it is the hub of their resistance, considered key ground and controls the main poppy fields and drug routes which they use to fund their war (I guess it must be ok in the Koran to use/sell drugs???).   When we took over from the US, it was a lawless and deadly place not just for troops but the local population.....we have fought hard and defeated the taliban head on in every battle we have engaged them in, the bulk of our dead and injured are from booby traps and IED's.   When people talk about lives lost etc......we paid a bitter price for securing that area 105 of our brothers payed with their lives....lives they knew may be lost when we join up to be a SOLDIER, it is our duty to serve our country not to question it.....we know that when we join up we may at some point have to put our lives on the line and we do it without question not for some of the reasons you think but for our mates and for the good we do and the bad we see being done around us......so do not insult us by saying we are retreating, far from it we have won every single direct firefight and we are now moving our efforts to our (British) main area of operations in central Helmund. Why can we do this?????????? the influx of  new troops 20'000 promised last year by the americans has arrived and can now attend to the area that was theirs pre 2006. This is some of the things our hard work in Sangin has allowed since the UK take over Sangin 2006: • the reform of Sangin's district governance with a new District Governor and senior staff appointed in March 2010. The new Governor is actively working with members of the UK-led Provincial Reconstruction Team and local community leaders to improve governance in Sangin and win the support of local tribal groupings, some of whom have previously supported the insurgency; • over 850 shops trading in Sangin's bazaar, twice as many as summer last year; • the improvement of Route 611 from central Helmand through Sangin to Kajaki - increasing access to agricultural land and markets for local people; • local administrators, supported by the Provincial Reconstruction Team, working to distribute grain and promote the production of legal alternatives to narcotics; • trained Afghan medics at the new health clinic, which opened in October 2009, treating 300 patients per week - men, women and children from Sangin and its surrounding areas. So hope fully you realise the stability we have brought to the area and please believe meit is a British Victory not a defeat...be proud of our troops....                                                                                                                                                                             

I'm always proud of our troops, wherever they may be                                                                                                                                                                              

Johnny, thanks for that post.    Although, like Steph, I am always proud of our troops wherever they may be serving, I don't think I fully appreciated what has actually been achieved.   I for one salute all the service men and women, and will always be proud of them.                                                                                                                                                                                 

I don't agree on the "reason" why we went to war but one thing i do support is our troops, they do a damn fine job in my eyes, in the worst of circumstances and without proper support from the government that sent them there in the first place.   If there is one thing that brings tears to my eyes it's seeing them parade through a town or the playing of the last post, turns me into a blubbering wreck   A big big thank you to the guys and girls out there                                                                                                                                                                               

Totally agree with supporting our lads out there or anywhere else they are serving, my middle son has been out there for 6 months and just had word that he is on his way home and gets into Brize tomorrow. woohooo                                                                                                                                                                              

Wheelbarrow total respect for your young un, I know how hard it is after a tour...thankfully he's coming home safe and sound......   Job well done....... Now keep him busy for 5 weeks or he'll drive you nuts lol...                                                                                                                                                                              

Glad your boy is safe WB .....the troops have my full support                                                                                                                                                                               

Think our boys and girls deserve every honour and mention they can get :)

My niece works at a military hospital here in Brum and sees the worse side of it and always amazes me with tales of how high spirited the injured troops are ..................... BIG UP from me thats for sure

Like Trish I support our troops no matter what but agree with her when I say why? As JTB has said ... What about the poppy fields in Korea? Are we going to do anything about them?

IMO the battle in Afghanistan is another Vietnam ... Something the Americans got into screwed up and are looking to everyone else to bail them out of!

Big thumbs up to our lads for what they are doing but it's time they came home from a conflict that there will never be an end to, there will always be a Taliban and always people wanting to join them and if we knocked them into the back of beyond they will return as soon as all troops are removed and start all over again, the country does not have the systems in place and will not for decades if ever to be able to stand up to them, do we keep our boys there for that long?

A friend commented to me ... How many times do you let a beloved dog bite and maim someone before you say enough is enough and put it down?

Well, lets see, if we pull out of there how long before british born and foreign terrorist start to target the West and Britain.....MI5 and our security services are working their arses of every day gathering evidence and stopping stuff that you and I will never hear about...mark my words...if it wasn't for the actions being taken today there would be a lot worse than 9/11 and the tube bombings happening......   .....the british public have such a short memory..... the lads in the air monitoring mobiles etc have heard the Brummie and Manc accents on the ground and what about those captured in Taliban camps at the start of Afghan......most got of by saying they were there visiting relatives...yeah because we all go to a Taliban training camp for our holidays..... ...they were interned, some at quantanimo bay and were released and actually got repatriated to the UK and as a result of Human rights got large figures of compensation....mmmhhh visiting relatives my arse......   If we pull out before the job is done....we will pay the price on the streets of Britain and then what will be said...Why aren't the forces going in to destroy the training camps, why has the government allowed this to happen.....   You know its true.....so carefull when you want to pull out before the job is done.....but I fear it will happen by political negligence and pressure rather than the right time to leave.... 22years service in the military has taught me that much...                                                                                                                                                                             

I know johnny ... Remember I was raised in the army ... But how long till the job is done, politicians are putting a time frame that is impossible, it's not going to be over any time soon they just do not and won't have the structure to deal with it no matter when we pull out, not when their own are still willing to join up with those that are being fought
Yes I understand the terrorism side of things however I cannot see an end to this no matter what the big wigs say within my working lifetime.
That's why I refer to it as IMO another vietnam the Americans pulled out before they achieved their objectives and I can see this going the same way. And to me that means the lads that have lost their life no matter what good hS been done before the pullout will have been a waste of time and lives, as a service person you accept you may die in combat, but you would expect that should that happen it was cos you were doing something worthwhile.

Its a different war then vietnam, they estimated 70% of US forces in Vietnam were taking drugs, it was a widely press orientated war, which is never good.......pretty much no press go out on frontline patrols...those that do don't ever go again as it is deadly to them and scares the life out of them...all the reporting is usually done from the safety of Bagram and Kandahar which are like nothing you have ever seen for facilities......and safe as houses generally when they patrol the perimeter constantly and stop any IED's being planted   Have you seen what they do to women in Afghanistan, one had her ears and nose cut of and left to die, under Islam and enforced by the taliban with the harshest form of Islam (Wahabbie) a husband has the right to beat his wife......regular out there......anything they don't think is akin to there interpretation of Islam the perpetrators are usually killed...... a woman needs 4 witnesses to confirm she has been raped (as if)...if she has made an allegation the husband can return her to her family as damaged goods.....and demand a dowrie back....she is often killed by the family cruely for bringing the family into disgrace by allowing the rape....... we are changing these things and not allowing the taliban self appointed judge jury and executioners the chance to allow this to happen......   ....Yes there are many things to do and it won't happen over night.....we started this now we must see it through..it would mean the guys who have paid with there lives died for nothing if we abandon the mission now and I have lost too many friends to let them die for nothing.....                                                                                                                                                                              

But surely that is an interpritation of someones religion as much as we do not like it (and yes it sickens me to see and hear what goes on) we do not have the right to say that what is done in one country is not so, we can say it's not right here and that it will not be tolerated, that's like saying we should start on the USA because we do not agree with the death penalty. Or that we should invade oriental countries cos they eat pets as day to day food, or 1000000 other things that we find unacceptable, however we are all to handy at letting the powers that be pick and choose what is right and wrong and it's way mixed up!

We have the right to say not in our country but not in somone elses.

Well they can do in their own country as they wish........ but when they train terrorists on their soil and send them into other countries and in particular my country then yes we should.......... . As for going in to countries which treat their people the way the taliban do...well I for one would be happy to go and do the right thing.....because in these modern day we are to ready to ignore what is the right thing to do......   I quote Edmund Burke 'All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing '!                                                                                                                                                                             

But who is to say what is good and evil, again It's not for us to say, read about the stages the Sambia tribe do with boys as young as 6 in order to turn them into men, taking a stick and poking it up their nose to make it bleed, making young boys have oral sex with other men because it will make them stronger, is that right? I don't know one person who would say yes but no one says anything about we must stop this and it goes on for 15 to 20 years till he is deemed a man or is killed for not being.

The reasons for the war in Afghanistan have been lost, 1st it was drugs, then terrorism, human rights, training camps .... It just goes on and I for one am sick of the politicians moving the goal posts to whatever will get them the best press coverage that week, our men and women giving and risking their lives deserve better.

an interesting point ... how many people realise that the war in Afghanistan ... in 2 weeks time will have been going for 9 years ? 

7th October 2001 

To start with to find Osama Bin Laden, remove the Taliban from power & to destroy Al-Quaeda in reply to 9/11 .. how much of that has been done in 9 years ?                                                                                                                                                                               

The Russians spent 10 years in the Afghanistan conflict 1979 - 1989 without resolution.  They effectively fought to a stalemate before withdrawing their troops.  Much as I want to see our boys (and girls) home, this time things need to be completed.  How long this will take and how many more lives will be lost is purely speculation.  The combat can only achieve so much, its getting the country and its people on side is the difficult part with religious extremists.  Its these reasons and loss of lives why I dispise religion and politics so much, but its there and we have to live with it. A bit like dog sh*t.
In the meantime all we can do is support our lads and lasses on the ground as much as possible, and lobby the government to provide the equipment, politics and manpower it needs to resolve the conflict.

I have read through al the thread and can see both points of view .... But I have to say that I would hope that if I lived in a country that had the likes of th taliban and their laws and teachings and no way to leave it, that other decent people would atleast try and better my way of life in anyway possible.

And to me thats all we are trying to do for the everyday people in afganistan .... yes its costing lives ....but how many more are benefiting from the change all be it small maybe that has come about in 9 years.

As to the sad loss of all the boys and girls so far surely walking away before we achieve all that we can makes the loss of their lives and the pain their families feel a waste .... they joined (my son included) the forces knowing before they started training in most cases, where they were going and the dangers and possible injuries and death they were facing ... but were still prepared to go.
If you ask them the majority said they were happy to go if what they did helped just one person to have a better life.

No one likes war or the grief that comes with it .... But we (IMO) should not be sat here debating the rights and wrongs of this and previous wars. Instead support our people out there and the families back home and all the work that goes on behind the frontline and be thankful we don't live in a country where we live in terror of groups like the taliban. Hoping that someone is brave enough to stand up for us and say enough is enough.

Thats my rant over .... hope i don't upset anyone ... but if i did it wasn't intentional

If anyone wants to see something very interesting and if you wonder why we don't have a lot of the kit we need and why at the bottom end of the rank structure we struggle to get funding for basics watch this and if you feel strongley write to your paper as they haven't picked up on it, write to your MP and the captain of the local tug boat if think it will make a difference..   http://www.channel4.com/programmes/dispatches/4od#3122150   This will really open your eyes to something that has always been going on......and yes it does cost lives.....                                                                                                                                                                             

How do these people sleep at night?  It just beggars belief that there are people with so little conscience